Thoughts on SEO & SEO for AI, part 1

[music]
Hello and welcome to a new episode of
Search Off the Record, a podcast coming
to you from the Google Search team where
we talk all about search and maybe have
some fun along the way. My name is John
Mueller. I'm a search advocate here at
Google Switzerland. And today we have
Danny Sullivan joining us all the way
from over in California. Hi Danny.
>> Hi John. It's good to be here.
>> Fantastic to have you here Danny. Uh
you've been active in search for a
really long time and I'd love to talk
with you a bit about some of the fancy
new things that are happening in the
world of search and SEO. So everything
kind of around AI or is this like really
a new thing? It feels like these fads
come and go. is AI in fad like how do
you think
>> oh gosh you know my favorite thing is
that we should be calling it ln o po
because there's just so many acronyms
for it is is it go for generative engine
optimization or AEO for answer engine
optimization and um AIO I don't know
there's so many different names for it
and um you know I used to write about
SEO and search like did that for like 20
years and and part of me is just so
relieved I don't have to do that aspect
of it anymore. Uh to try to keep up with
everything that people are wondering
about. And on the other hand, you still
have to kind of keep up on it because we
still try to explain to people what's
going on. And I think the good news is
like
there's not a lot you actually really
need to be worrying about. It's
understandable. I think people keep
having these questions, right? You know,
I mean, you you you see search formats
changing. You see all sorts of things
happening and you wonder, well, is there
something new I should be doing? Totally
get that. And remember [sighs] we John
and I and others we all came together
because we had this blog post we did in
May which we'll drop a link to or we'll
point you to somehow to it. But it was
we were getting asked again and again
well what should we be doing? What
should we thinking about it? We all put
our heads together and we talked with
the engineers and everything else. So we
came up with uh nothing really that
different.
>> That was kind of challenging. Yeah.
>> And and it's hard. I mean I again I
think people really see stuff and they
think they want to be doing something
different. it is a natural reaction. Um,
and so the short answer because we'll do
a long answer because we got a podcast
or maybe two that'll come from what
we're doing. But, um, you know, it is
the natural reaction you have, but we
talk about sort of this north star or
the point that you should be heading to.
And when it comes to all of our ranking
systems, it's about how are we trying to
reward content that we think is great
for people that it was written for human
beings in mind, not written for search
algorithms, not written for LLMs, not
written for LML, PEO, whatever you want
to call it, is that [gasps and sighs]
everything we do and all the things that
we tailor and all the things that we try
to improve, it's all about how do we
reward content that human beings find
satisfying.
and say that was what I was looking for.
That's what I needed. So, if all of our
systems are lining up with that, it's
it's that thing about you're going to be
ahead of it if you're already doing
that. To whereas the more you're trying
to optimize or GEO or whatever you think
it is for a specific kind of system, the
more you're potentially going to get
away from the main goal, especially if
those systems improve and get better,
then you're kind of having to shift and
and play a lot of catchup. So, you know,
we're going to talk about some of that
stuff here with the big caveat. We're
only talking about Google, right? That's
that's who we work for. So, we don't say
what you know, anybody else's AI search,
chat search, whatever you want to kind
of deal with and kind of go with it from
there. Um, but we'll talk about how we
look at things and how it works. Mhm.
>> Yeah. One of the the challenging things
I noticed when we came out with that
blog post basically saying you don't
need to do anything different was that
people were hearing all of these things
that they had to be doing. It's like you
have to split your content up or you
have to do this, do that. And they kind
of us going out and saying well actually
you don't need to do any of that. I I
can imagine that for some people that
felt a bit like well Google just doesn't
know. They don't realize like you have
to do all of these new things now.
>> Yeah. And I think um you know it's the
same thing with the traditional SEO like
you may find something that you discover
if I do this one particular thing maybe
I'm getting a little bit more success
than I expected or maybe I'm being
successful in ways that were wildly more
than I expected. But also I think those
things don't tend to last because of
what I said before. You you went after
one specific thing rather than going
after the overall goal. So when all the
other factors that came into play start
to change around and things shift and
things improve, then your one little
thing that you did before isn't the one
little magic trick that whatever it was
those ads used to say one little trip
can you can use your belly fat.
Yeah. except that one little trip was
like I needed to eat less and I do like
to eat but anyway
[clears throat and snorts]
[laughter]
let me let's let's start off and we kind
of go into this further and like set
some definitions and like to me um this
is what I' I've been using when I've
I've talked or tried to explain things
to people um is that SEO
is the practice of improving content for
search engines right um and and it's
funny I used to again I was outside of
Google and people would ask me like,
"Oh, what's SEO? I'm doing all this
stuff for Google." And I used to be
like, "No, that's not what you do as
SEO." Like SEO isn't just I'm going to
try to show up in blue links on Google.
SEO is you are understanding how people
seek information and then you're
understanding how that information
appears and you're ensuring that you're
doing the things that are helping you to
be successful. Which would even refer
to, oh, something gave me a voice
response. Well, how did it figure out
the voice response and was there a way
for me to be present in it or whatever?
So, I think I did that at a blog post
like 2010 or something like that where I
wrote about all this sort of stuff. But
anyway, [snorts and sighs]
those days my hair was a bit darker
then. [gasps]
But I think that even as people are
going through all this and they're
hearing all these different acronyms and
they're all trying to figure out what to
do, I don't think that the nature of
search engines changing and getting new
format changes that the umbrella term
remains SEO. And that AEO, GEO,
Elemento, Po, whatever you want to call
it, to me would be a subset of the SEO.
You're focusing on AI formats. Some
people do local SEO, right?
It's not a different kind of SEO
necessarily um that's completely removed
from it, but there are some things that
may be specific to local listings. You
try to understand it. So, I think that
one reframing of this is that you
understand that there's these new
formats and how do they apply into my
world of SEO that I'm thinking about and
then
are there specific things I do need to
be doing or not be doing for these kinds
of formats? But, you know, start off
with it's it's still SEO, you know, and
it's still kind of the kind of thing
that you go with it. Oh, can I do a
little tiny little caveat in there, too?
>> Okay.
>> Two little ones. Sorry.
>> You know, I I rant on and roll along,
but um one thing because I don't want to
forget this. I should have grabbed a
piece of paper to write things down
along the way. Um, one thing it's just a
reminder that if you're not an SEO, you
didn't do SEO, you don't think about SEO
or you don't even know what that means,
great. That's like wonderful. You don't
that's we we will we have you guys have
written you know everybody at at search
central put together the whole guide of
SEO to tell people who want to
understand from our point of view things
you should think about but we really
just want you to focus on your content
and not really worry about this if your
content is on the web and generally
accessible as most people's content is
that's it. Um, I've actually been
heartened that I've seen a number of
people um saying things like, "I don't
even want to think about this SEO stuff
anymore. I'm just getting back into the
joy of writing blogs." Like, yes, great.
That's what we want you to do. That's
where we think you're going to find your
most success. Like, that's wonderful.
But that said, people didn't ask
questions. They want to know. So, then
we, you know, we talk about the SEO
stuff. And the other thing is, and I've
seen a number of people remark on this,
um, is this concern that, well, I've
been doing SEO, but now I'm getting
clients or people saying to me, but I
need the new stuff. I need the new
stuff, and I can't just tell them it's
the same old stuff.
>> [snorts]
>> So, I don't know if you feel like you
need to
dress it up a bit more, but I think the
way you dress it up is to say
these are continuing to be the the
things that are going to make you
successful in the long term. Like, I get
you want the fancy new type of thing,
but the history is that the fancy new
type of thing doesn't always sort of
stick around if we go off and do these
particular types of things. I'm keeping
an eye on it. But right now, the best
advice I can tell you when it comes to,
you know, how we're going to be
successful with our AEO is that we
continue on doing the stuff that we've
been doing because that's that that is
what it's built on, which, you know,
it's easy for me to say cuz I don't got
someone banging on the door saying,
"Well, actually, we do." And so, we are
doing that. So, that's why that's part
of the podcast. It's just to kind of
reassure that look, just because the
formats are changing didn't mean you
have to change everything that you had
to do and that everything you had to
shift around and in fact that the more
that you dramatically shift things
around and start doing something
completely different or the more that
you start thinking I need to do two
different things, the more that you may
making things far more complicated, not
necessarily successful in the long term
as you think they are. I'll take a
breath now.
>> I I think that makes a lot of sense. I I
think one of the things that perhaps uh
throws SEOs off a little bit is that in
the early days there was a lot of almost
like a technical transition where like
people initially had to do a lot of
technical specific things to make their
site even kind of accessible in search
and at some point nowadays I think if
you're using a popular CMS like
WordPress or Wix or any of
basically you don't have to worry about
any of those technical details. So it's
almost like that technical side of
things is a lot less uh in in the
foreground now and you can really focus
on the content and that's really what
what users would are looking for. So
it's like that almost like a transition
from technical to content side with
regards to SEO. I I think that's great.
And I think it it reminded me also of
like again being so old thinking back to
um you know before Google even existed I
remember we would write about stuff and
some there were tools people would use
or techniques people would use because
they would like I'm making a page for
Alta Vista. Look it up kids.
>> Leos [laughter]
I'm making one for webcwler. Oh I'm
making one for open text. and they would
like do six different versions of
content for six different search
engines. And sometimes they did have
some very specific types of things that
maybe you could be a little more
successful, but they weren't that
different and it generally wasn't going
to be worth that much of an effort for a
typical person to kind of go through all
that sort of stuff. And then over time,
because I think they were all aiming
towards the same sorts of things, the
differences became less. We also got
fewer search engines along the way, but
it I don't think that takes away from
the fact that it didn't continue on that
people were constantly making content
for typically making content for
specific types of search engines.
They're obviously some people who always
go to some whatever extremes that they
they can, but um it wasn't like a
typical strategy people would do.
>> Cool. Yeah. So, what would you say web
creators should focus on nowadays with
all of the AI? A key thing is to really
focus on the original aspect,
not a new thing. These are not new
things beyond search, but if you're
really trying to reframe your mind about
what's important, I think that um one
hand, there's a lot of content that is
just kind of commodity content, factual
information, and I think that the LLM AI
systems are are doing a good job of
presenting that sort of stuff. And it's
not originating from any type of thing.
So the classic example, as you know,
will make people laugh. I'm sure it's
something we call it, but you know,
every year we have this little this
little American football thing called
the Super Bowl, which is our big event.
Everybody gathers around um and watches
it and, you know, sees what happens
between whatever teams are going,
whatever. But no one ever can seem to
remember what time it's on. So everybody
[snorts] would come in and they do a
search on Google and they're like, "What
time is the Super Bowl?" Right? Um, and
I think it's always like 3:30 all across
America. We unify on a single time at
that point. Every year it would happen.
Multiple places would then all write
there, what time does the Super Bowl
start in 2011 post? And then they would
write these giant long things. And this
in the history of Super Bowls before the
the dinosaurs roamed on Earth, people
wondered about time. What is the concept
of time? And how does it take us across
the universe? Well, and then like and
the Super Bowl will be at 3:30 p.m.
Eastern. Yes. [laughter]
>> So, you know, and then at some point we
could see enough information and we have
data feeds and everything else that we
just kind of said, you do a search and
we like the Super Bowl is going to be at
3:30. And like most people, I think the
vast majority of people say that's a
good thing. Thank you for telling me the
time of the Super Bowl. It it wasn't
super original information. Um, it's a
bummer if you were one of the things
that was always competing doing it for
that particular day if you're able to
spike in traffic. Um, and maybe you even
had to adjust for that month. I
understand you were going to be getting
that much anymore. But I think that
isn't thing people need to understand is
that more of this sort of commodity
stuff. Um, [clears throat] it it isn't
going to necessarily be your strength.
And I do worry that some people even
with traditional SEO focus on it too
much. There are a number of sites I know
from the the research and things that
I've done that um get a huge amount of
traffic for the answer to various
popular online wordolving games. Just
every day I'm going to give you the
answer to it. And it's like and that is
great until you know the system shift or
whatever and it's common enough or we're
pulling it from a feed or whatever and
now it's like here's the answer. But
that wasn't really your strength as a
publication or as a site or whatever.
That wasn't your original voice. Your
original voice is that thing that only
you can provide. It's your particular
take. And so that's what we think was
our number one thing when we're telling
people is like this is what we think
your strength is going to be. You as we
go into this this new world, it was
already what you should be doing, but
this is what your strength that you
should be doing is focus on that
original content. I think related to
that is this idea that um people are
also seeking original content that's in
it's authentic to them which typically
means it's a video it's a podcast cuz
we're talking see now we're more
authentic. [laughter]
[gasps]
um or there are posts where they they
getting these firsthand perspectives or
whatever and and and we've seen that in
the search we've already done where we
we brought in more social more
experiential content. Not to take away
from the expert takes, it's just that
people want that sometimes like you're
just wanting to know someone's firsthand
experience alongside some some expert
take on it as well. But if you are
providing those expert takes, you know,
you're you're doing reviews or whatever
and you've done that in the written
form, you still have the opportunity to
be doing those in videos and podcasts
and so on. Those are other
opportunities. So those are things that
again, it's not unique to the AI
formats, but they just may be as you're
thinking about how do I re-evaluate what
I'm doing overall in this era that that
these are things you may want to be
considering with it from there. I I
think that makes a lot of sense also
because the the web like even without
AI, the web has evolved so much that
it's like there's a lot of this
commodity content already out there. And
what really sets you apart is kind of
that unique voice that you bring in. And
uh when we're talking about something
like like the Super Bowl, it's not that
we can present a a page of search
results that are basically all the same
thing. It's like here's the history of
football since the dinosaurs. Uh but
people want on the one hand they do want
to see some generic information, some
commodity content, but they also really
want to see unique takes and kind of
understand what is what is different or
what what has changed or what is kind of
a unique take on this situation.
>> Yeah. And I think it maybe helps you
learn beyond things too. Uh and I I
suspect that that you're going to see
this is what we're we're thinking about
is if we are presenting the commodity
information, but we also want to ensure
people are are continuing to be
satisfied or learning more or learning
things from the open web then how can we
point you to things that let you go
beyond it like you know so I don't know
if it'll be the history of the time of
the Super Bowl maybe is that sort of
history of the Super Bowl or in that
particular place that's the kind of
thing we might show alongside it or or
why it somehow over time a football
evolved from a round spherical object um
originating in England and and somehow
managed to turn into this sort of
elongated
uh ovalic type of thing that um is known
and is so popular in the rugby playing
countries but also um you know if you
don't get it you don't know like
American football or football is
completely different from football which
is football or soccer or whatever. But
anyway, but it's coming home, John. It's
coming home.
>> It's coming home. Okay. I I think also
with regards to um authentic content, it
feels like that's that's the kind of
thing that you can't really artificially
create where you can't go out and it's
like, oh, I have to write something
about the the Super Bowl. I will create
something authentic and
follow this pattern. Well, and I I think
that's where I always come back when
people say, "Well, how what did I do
think about this, etc." I always think
about it in terms of social media,
right? And fair enough. There's plenty
of social media that's quote authentic,
but it's not really authentic. Like, you
know, it's whatever. But there's it's
resonating with people. And I think it
seems that a lot of people who are on
social media, the ones I especially
like, they just have something great
that they want to share or they they
have a passion about it and they didn't
sit down and think how am I going to
tweak it so that this is super great for
I don't know Instagram but not for Snap
and now for you know whatever. Don't get
me wrong, I don't make videos and
there's certainly things you can see
people are doing and like and make sure
you put in the captions so that I can
listen to a me when I'm don't have my
volume on my thank you everybody who
ever just does captions cuz I never have
my volume on looking at stuff but even
textual posts or whatever there are I
think there's kind of these technical
things you do and things you learn along
way but the core is you were authentic
to people who started following you
because you were just authentic like
that you you were speaking to what you
were knowledgeable about and you didn't
get lost so much into how do I
manufacture it so much I think but you
know I'm sure there are people out there
who will tell me no you're so wrong it's
all yeah I know I get plenty of that
stuff on threads myself only people who
were born and lived in the 80s will know
what this is okay I tell you what it is
it's a pencil you used it to rewind a
cassette tape which is the way you used
to listen to music before we had CDs
which was the way you listen to music
before we had MP3 threes, which was the
way you listen to music before we had,
you know, streaming.
>> That sounds very multimodal.
[laughter]
So there, nice segue.
This brings us back to the blog post. We
were trying to come up with other things
like, well, is there anything else we
could say? And we said, well, be
multimodal. [gasps] I hate the term
multimodal. I just hate it. [sighs]
It says nothing. So like when I tried to
explain to people it's like look you
search one way and get information back
in the other. So a good example of this
was um I was walking around uh in
Portland and some killing some time
before I did a talk out there and I um
I saw these geese on the ground. Not in
the air but they were on the ground.
They're all over the place and they were
eating something or doing something or
poking at the ground. So, I did a video
of them and then I sent it off to um
Google conveniently enough because we
can do that. You can send a video
through the app and I I'm like, "What
are they doing?" And it came back and it
said, "They're eating. What What did you
think they were doing?" [laughter]
All right. I thought it would be a
little cooler, but it was like it did
say they're eating grass and stuff. I'm
like, "Okay, well, at least I knew." But
I didn't say anything like I see geese.
They are this color. They're in this
area. They keep poking their heads at
the ground. They're walking. I just
like, here's a video. What are they
doing? And it came back and gave me a
textual response. That was multimodal.
It did this search and then it came with
a video and came back with a textual
response and understood it. I've been
doing this all the time now cuz I'm so
lazy. I like was clearing out my closets
and getting rid of some stuff and I'm
like just taking pictures of things. I'm
like, "What is this worth?" AI. What is
this worth? It's like worth nothing.
Throw it away.
Just clear it out. That's worth nothing.
Um or what is this? How do I fix this
thing? Like I couldn't even be bothered
to type in the name of it. I'm just like
what is it? How do I fix it? Oh, that
that thing. I know. So anyway, to get
back to the advice is that like so we're
matching up with things where we can
identify other people who have images
and video and text along with this where
we can we can put all this stuff
together. And so if you have been more
textual in nature and you haven't been
doing images or video, then by maybe
making sure you have more contentrich
original content, you potentially are
going to have opportunities in some of
these multimodal search experiences.
This isn't just AI specific. It's been
again one of these things that something
that you could be thinking of, but it
was one of those things like when we
were all putting our heads together, it
was like, yeah, let's let's emphasize
that as well because that's that's
something people can focus on that will
help them in both of these kinds of
areas. So, yeah, multimodal.
>> I think it also helps with regards to
what is presented to people because on
the one hand, you're searching with a
video, other people are searching with
text and sometimes a video is a good
answer for that. like how do I fix this
thing? It's not going to be like this
wall of text that is on some blog post,
but maybe a link to a blog post that has
a video embedded and then you go off and
watch that video. Um, because it's just
I don't know, maybe an easier way to
digest that information. So, that feels
like something that works both for AI
and for normal search. Um, so maybe
maybe it's just like SEO.
>> See, as long as there's an O in it, it's
all the same. That's the unifying
[laughter]
>> the unifying thing.
>> So So what's the best way for sites to
kind of make sure that they're hitting
this target that they're doing the right
thing?
>> Um [sighs] well, I mean everybody
everybody's going to be different. So
that was the other thing. Oh, I want to
put a little quick thing. We we also
mentioned structured data in there,
right?
>> Mhm.
>> And I think that was another thing where
it wasn't like
if you didn't have structured data,
that's it. You're done for. No. O a E I
O P and O G for you. It was more that we
looked at that and we thought that could
be helpful for that. It's already
helpful for other things and people
aren't always thinking about that. So it
was more of a think about this along the
way, you know, type of thing. Not that
that was your your secret. Aha,
structured data now I have it. There I
am. AIO's I own you. So, but I think the
big thing we kind of put at the end was
this like sort of measure your full
value. That's what you're asking. How do
I know if I'm successful? It's like,
well, we don't know how you know if
you're successful. Only you know that
you know how you're successful. But
sometimes, even in this age, people
aren't seeming to even define what their
success is beyond I got a lot of clicks,
right? And what we were saying was,
well, you probably want to start
measuring quality clicks and quality
conversions. Like, you you've got to
figure it out for yourself and you've
got to determine what makes sense for
you or whatever. But the one real thing
that we've been finding um with these
new formats is that people arrive and
they seem to be uh more engaged when
they get there. Well, how do you know
they're more converted? How can you
tell? We just do. It's fine. We know.
No. [laughter]
>> [gasps]
>> we we can understand the time of of
visits or whatever and so we can
understand they're spending more time on
the sites which we think is a good proxy
for people being more engaged and then
and I said I wouldn't talk about you
know just talk about us but anecdotally
you've seen plenty of people talk about
oh I'm getting so many more engaged
people from X AI format or whatever and
I think that what's happening I just
personally think we think as we look at
all this is
We think that these formats,
we're going to need to swing her back
around to the formats. I got a whole
thing about why, but we think these
formats are putting people into a better
state of contextual awareness. We think
people understand better what they're
getting into after they read one of
these things.
>> So, I think this is common for many
people. It certainly was common for me.
You search for something you don't even
know how to search, like Billy Eyelash.
That's spelled E Y E L L A S H. No,
>> people do that. You can try that. Type
in Billy eyelash. And we'll correct it
for you.
>> You're searching for something you don't
even know. I've got to fix something in
my house. I don't even know where to
begin or what I do with it. So, you do a
search, you get some results back, maybe
you click on something, you go, that's
not really it. You click back. You do
another search. Click on this. That's
not quite it. And and as you're learning
yourself by doing these searches, you're
starting to refine the kind of queries
that you're doing. And eventually you
get to the search you should have done
for the beginning. You just didn't even
know you should be doing it. And then
you click onto something. You go that
that's it. That's what I'm looking for.
You're the one. So
I think that these AI formats like speed
up that process for people. Um query fan
out. John, tell me about query fan out.
>> Yeah. Um,
>> put him on the spot. [laughter]
>> Oh my god. Uh, I I think I think one of
the the interesting parts about query
fan out is basically it does a whole
bunch of searches for you. So it's kind
of in a way what you were describing
before like all of those small
incremental searches that you could have
done it does for you and based on the
the results that it finds it it puts
together an AI answer. Excellent. That's
that's beautiful. Yeah. So, you know,
that's why people would get so confused.
That's one of the things why we explain
we have in the little video that we can
point you to as well, but people be
like, I did this search and I wasn't in
I'm in the blue links, but I'm not in
the AIO. And it's like, yeah, dude,
[laughter]
the search is what the person searched
for, but we went beyond that with the
AIO's when all those, as you said, those
sort of incremental things. So when you
get one of these AIOs or if you're in AI
mode, which I really love myself, I
spent a lot of time there, but you
you've getting a lot more context. So
you are ending up with the thing that is
probably closer to what you wanted in
the first place. So that brings us back
to this measuring the full value. If you
have been getting a lot of these
incremental clicks and they've clicked
away, maybe that was a visit, but maybe
that wasn't really a good value to you.
whereas the people coming in who are
converting better might be better
prospects. And also maybe you're not
even thinking about how you do the
conversions, right? Maybe,
you know, [gasps]
I've said this before, but when I used
to run a site or two, I like my number
one goal was always to make sure that if
you arrived there, you left your email
because I wanted to then have this
continuing connection, you know, that we
would be able to then reach out with
you, whatever. So that was the thing we
wanted to that was our conversion type
of thing. I don't know what everybody
else's conversion thinks or whatever how
they measure it. It's going to be down
to you. But but this is a a shift that
people are starting to see and
recognize. And if you are trying to
think, well, how do I deal with this
whole new world of how search is
changing? That seems to be one of the
things and that seems to be one of the
things you should be looking toward. Am
I understanding my conversion better?
Are there things I can do to better take
advantage of better converting people
and so on. That also seems like
something that would be challenging to
put into search console because like you
said, everyone has a different notion of
what they consider a conversion.
>> Yeah, I mean it's especially for us like
in search console we would have to have
all sorts of things hooked up to it and
you'd have to sh you know what whatever
whatever there are different analytic
tools that can let you do that. Um if if
you want to go into that deep they're
way beyond the kind of stuff I deal
with. Uh but certainly that's one.
However you're however you're doing it,
do it. Think more about it. And if you
aren't doing it, think more about it
with it from there. So I wanted to say
one other thing too. This brings me back
to that little detour I wanted to say.
Um so the great things that we've been
seeing with the AI formats is it it
feels so good to people I believe
because you're searching the way you
wanted to search in in the beginning. We
just hadn't really had the technology
for it. So,
>> [snorts]
>> um, I had to track this down. Um, Brian
Pinkerton was like the guy behind
WebCrawler, and he has this classic
metaphor, which I may have been the
first person to write about. I can't I
can't pin it down exactly, but I can
remember and I found when I talked to
him, it's like in 1996 or so, but I'm
like, this is back in the days. I'm
like, what are search engines? How do
they work for people? I'm trying to
explain it. And he was saying look you
know one of the challenges we have as
search engine as web crawler but in
general is that it's like someone walks
into a library and they say travel and
[laughter]
that's that was the state of search
right and it still is in some ways
people give you one or two words and
then it's like the librarian would turn
to you and say well okay that's nice did
you want to travel anywhere in
particular are you interested in the
history of travel are you wanting to go
on a boat on a plane a train, you know,
the librarian would engage in
conversation with you, kind of get these
information from you, if you will, do
all those queries that you would kind of
do and then say, "Here are some things
that might be helpful to you." And he
was saying, "But search engines can't do
that." And then over time, they they've
tried to come up with proxies for it.
So, if you were to search for um pizza
on us today, um we would understand
first of all your location and the
location of things related to you and we
probably would show you um you know
local pizza places without you having to
say I want local pizza places cuz we're
going to guess that maybe you're hungry,
maybe you want to order pizza, so you
want it from a local place. if there had
been a pizza eating contest recently
that had gotten worldwide attention
because Mama Mia, that was a lot of
pizza someone ate [gasps]
and we could see a spike in that kind of
news content, then potentially we would
show you top stories because like oh
they're probably interested in that
pizza eating thing that's happened and
we the contextual clues there. Um, if
you had just done a lot of searches for
recipes, potentially we could understand
from your short-term personal, you know,
recent searches. Okay, well, maybe show
some pizza recipes that are in there cuz
this person's wanted to make it
themselves. Um, so those but there's
still guesses. And now it's like you can
have these conversations. you can and
you're starting to realize you can just
start off with the conversation where
you can go in and say, "I want to make a
pizza. Can you um tell me the kinds of
stoves that would be useful for me to
use if I want to do it in my backyard or
garden or whatever?" And go from there.
And you can do the follow-up
conversations and go with it from there.
So, I think that we're getting into this
more natural way of searching, the way
you probably would have wanted to search
way back when. Um, and and it's cool
because if it re-energizes people to
want to search, then, you know,
hopefully everybody's being successful
along the way.
>> I think it probably makes it a little
bit challenging for those that want to
track all of these things because when
everyone goes to search engine and just
says pizza, you see a big number for
that query. Whereas if people ask very
specific questions around pizza, then
that's kind of hard to to aggregate. So
it seems like that might be a direction
where I don't know in the future things
like search console or other tools might
need to expand to better understand well
they searched this really long thing but
they were looking for a pizza recipe.
>> Yes. And this will be part of the
challenge in terms of how we're taking
in feedback and also just trying to
understand how you do evolve the kinds
of tools because you know you get really
really long complicated queries. This
goes back to the kind of SEO mental
space that people may have started with
and it's understandable but um they
would use various tools over the years
to understand what were popular things
people were searching for, what were
specific terms and sometimes way in the
past that was really important because
you would be like oh am I trying to be
found for
this word or that word? Well, which is
the more popular way people describe it?
Am I trying to be found for generative
engine optimization or answer engine
optimization? Well, let me track which
is more popular and then I'm going to
make sure I write using that thing all
along. But then over time, you know,
search engines got smarter and they're
like, "Yeah, I know you didn't use the
exact word, but guess what? Sounds we
can figure all that stuff out. You
didn't have to be as specific, but still
some of that memory muscle stays and all
those sorts of things. So, you got to
run back to the keyword tool. I'm going
to try to understand it." But now what
do you do like when people are doing
like entire sentences?
Well, obviously you've got to start
optimizing for the entire sentence. So
right now make a page for every possible
sentence that someone might know. Don't
do that please.
It it comes back to that grounding of
what is the general thing that you're
trying to write about and then again are
you writing it in a way that a human
being would expect it to be written for
them? Um and that's what you should do.
Cool. Well, that was it for this
episode. Um it was great talking about
all of the different aspects that kind
of play a role with regards to SEO and
AI being a part of that. Um, also
talking a little bit about some of the
things that you can do if you want to
optimize or focus on kind of the new
things around SEO. Um, making sure that
you're creating something original,
authentic, that you're thinking
multimodal despite you not liking that
word. Um, and thinking about different
ways that you can measure your success
online. Thank you for joining us here,
Danny.
>> Thanks for having me, John. Look forward
to talking next week. Thank you all for
listening in and goodbye.
We've been having fun with these podcast
episodes. I hope you, the listener, have
found them both entertaining and
insightful, too. Feel free to drop us a
note on LinkedIn or chat with us at one
of the next events that we go to. If you
have any thoughts, and of course, don't
forget to like and subscribe. Thank you
and goodbye.
>> [music]