Understanding how users experience your website | Search Off the Record

[Music]
hello hello and welcome to another
episode of search off the record a
podcast coming to you from the Google
search team my name is Lizzie and today
we have a very special guest with us Eva
who is a ux researcher on the bill in
the blank team at Google can you tell me
uh what you're working on uh gladly so
hello hello uh I'm Eva um I'm
quantitative user experience researcher
um just freshly transferred to Google
shopping uh congratulations thank you
I'm super happy about that and uh before
shopping I worked on our internal uh
search and I also worked on Google
assistant at some point so that means
basically my whole Google career has
spent in some shape and some mode of
search and uh and with uxr you've been
this is your entire career or did you
make a career transfer that's my entire
career in Google but uh as you will
learn almost nobody who does uxr in
Google actually um studied to become a
uxr we all come from very diverse
backgrounds and especially if you do
something that I do which is like a
special flavor of uxr quantitative uxr
yes I heard you mention this so it's not
just uxr it's quantitative um yes and
this is something very unique to big
companies um the smaller the company the
the less specialized uh people are right
so if you're just starting a very small
company you could have the same person
doing both research and design or doing
product management and user research but
then the bigger the company grows the
more specialized roles become so like
the first typical split is like in
design and research then the next one
once you have a lot of researchers right
some of them specialize in uh methods
that Focus like to get some rich user
data right so you really want to talk to
a couple of users in depth and some
other uxr
specialize um uh in methods that get you
a lot of data but maybe not uh at the
same depth as um uh as qualitative uh
colleagues in fact everybody can do user
experience research right you don't have
to have this in your title to be allowed
or able to talk to your users right and
in fact every of course of course so can
you tell me what is uxr so it's
researching ux so it does that mean
you're doing something really academic
you're reading a lot you're you're
research reading research papers like
what what is what is the thing yes so I
can I hope hopefully I can explain so
first ux stands for user experience and
user experience is basically like a
fancy name for person's thoughts
feelings and action before they start
interacting with any system while they
interact and after it right so it
doesn't mean just user interface it
doesn't mean just usability it's just
like this General fluffy thing right
that goes around the uh the use and um
there is somehow academic branch of this
I would say right so you've for sure
heard of um human computer interaction
okay yes this like the the degree that
you would get or something exactly so
this is like academic discipline that uh
that studies interaction between well
humans and machines right okay uh but
then um ux research is kind of more like
applied version of that that happens in
Industry because usually like when you
do academic research you want to make
sure that what you learn is very
generalizable and that it applies to
many if not all humans and so on but in
industry very often you don't
necessarily care to learn things that
are applicable overall right you just
need to learn something about your
product and you need to learn it fast
right so um compared to Academia I would
say on average we apply a little bit
less rigor to our methods but that's
okay right because at the end of the day
like we want our insights to be very
practical and very applicable right you
want to fix your product or you want to
make it better which is much different
from some like academic kind of goal of
uh understanding humanity and how humans
behave in general and what's the goal
with this whole thing like it we're
studying how people are interacting but
then what do we do with it yeah so I
mean ideally we improve our products
right so we either build better products
to begin with OR we improve the products
we've already built or we learn
something for the next time we are
building a product um and of course
having a good product is also not a goal
in itself right so if you own a website
like let's say you own a web store your
goal is ultimately to sell products
right to sell something to to your users
but then um if your website is such that
people cannot find stuff in it that they
are frustrated with it that they are not
satisfied with their experience at all
they will not come back right because
almost like there are very few products
where users are really like locked into
they have to use this one they don't
have an alternative like you will suffer
through this stat experience because you
need to make the
or whatever exactly so like if you have
to use a particular software for for
work maybe manufacturer of that software
is not necessarily like super concerned
with you being super happy with this
product but in general like for most
companies like you know getting your
visitors fast to to their goal getting
them to come back getting them to
recommend your product further right
these are all somehow related to how
good their experience was with your
product so if I have like let's talk
practically how would I know that I need
to do uxr uh a study or to start looking
into this and let's say I I have a small
website it's not a big company I don't
have a team do I just is it sort of a
chicken and an egg thing like do I know
that it's there's a problem and I need
to bring in uxr or apply something from
there or can I bring them into then
uncover the problem so how do you know
that you need one well it's easy because
almost always you need one right
are you just biased though no there is
no such thing as a perfect product but
of course you it doesn't mean that like
uxr is the first thing that your small
company should do um if you are building
something that has like very well
established examples in the industry
right uh you know if you are building a
a a website or like online auction site
or so on it's it's already quite well
known right like what works and what
doesn't work you mean like what's
expected from a user who is making a bid
like let's say it's the auction side
example yes and like how to present your
products you know how to filter through
them and so on right so in that sense
you know your your your uxr and you
cannot hear my quotation marks here but
like your uxr might consist of you going
out looking at the examples of products
that you think or somebody else thinks
work well right and just kind of
learning from that and that's already
some form of uxr right you're you're
probably already doing it naturally um
as you're paying attention to how using
websites and we kind of know uh what
would be like what how to find the menu
there's probably General convention that
you should put a menu like this and if
you're doing something that's not
standard or unusual then that's probably
a sign or it's going to be more
difficult for people to find it if they
don't know where the thing is exactly uh
um with the like small difference you
know like if you're learning from other
people's experiences you as a developer
might focus on you know how does this
thing technically work but what uxr
would probably focus a little bit more
is like how users flow through products
you know like you know okay so okay I
now imagine myself as a user I want to
like buy a certain product like so which
actions might I take and then you could
take an inventory of you know how are
you guided as a user through different
products right so this is a little bit I
guess difference between uxr and other
research it's really like you always
trying to to like understand the
experience from user perspective not
like from technical perspective or even
from your own right because that's I
guess a big maxim of uxr is you are not
your users right and of course uh you
are maybe representing some of your
users but um the moment you start
building your your site or your product
you just understand it too well right
and then it's very hard to imagine
yourself as a as somebody who is very
different from you right you we become
like as we develop our products we
really become experts in our products
and then it's very hard to like take
this novice view of our products right
it's the curse of knowledge like once
you know where I I know exactly where
this thing is on my website so I can
navigate to it and then you forget or
it's hard to unknow that piece of
information so if you're doing like a
DIY approach for uxr how can you do you
like need to imagine that you're a
different user or do you need to go talk
to people do you show them your website
on the street like how can you go about
doing this yeah so like all of the above
so it very much depends on like how
important this is to you and how Keen
you are and how much time you have and
how many resources you have right but uh
if you if you let's let's for for a
moment assume you will do DIY right so
let's assume you are have very low
budget I'm not going no budget no agency
so I I just want to do I might be it's
me I'm working on yeah I have a
documentation site developer
documentation and I want to dabble in
uxr do I need to have a project in my
first or like a problem in in mind yeah
I guess you should have some sort of a
problem but for sure almost certainly
already have one so your problem might
be something like you might experience
high bounce rates or low conversions you
might receive some negative feedback
right and you might not know oh does
this feedback reflect all my users or
did one person like have very bad seral
this morning right you might uh not even
know who your users are or what they
need right you might have a great idea
for an app but but you're like okay but
who would really use this um it might be
that you observed some sort of drop in
usage right that you cannot explain from
external factors um or it might be that
you're just anyways deciding to redesign
your service so then why not like look a
little bit into like how to make it
easier for your users and um there are
many many resources I mean free online
resources right to help yourself but as
you said without knowing anything it's
very hard searching in the dark for like
uxr resources is maybe too broad of a
net um but I relate to what you were
saying like uh finding the problems do
make their way known to me so we do have
some things on our site uh where we can
see the helpfulness rating for example
like a lot of people are having a bad
time on this page or they don't like it
they hate it they're clicking that
downvote button but I don't necessarily
know why yeah so would that be where uxr
best practices would come into play to
sort of like investigate is it like
investigative journalism a little like
being a detective detective about like
why is this happening and then you sort
of like start to investigate the metrics
that or at least the data that you have
yeah potentially yeah exactly so you you
of course you would first start with the
data that you have because that's
cheaper than generating new data um but
um even if you um are able to determine
exactly where the thing happens right
you might still not EX exactly know why
and this is where it's actually helpful
to also be able to talk to few users so
in general there is um I mean there are
many ways you can split uxr methods but
kind of the the the most useful um way
if you are a small businesses to think
about okay there are some methods which
don't require like users and there are
some methods which do require users and
it's a little bit unintuitive that you
can do uxr without talking to users uh
but uh there are many methods like the
idea is you know uh you will ultimately
do user research with users but before
you are even ready to put stuff in front
of your users because that requires time
and money yeah it's like you need to
show them a demo or something like I
guess like talking to users are are we
actually talking about like verbally
speaking with them like bringing them in
for interview or like a survey something
that's a little bit more scalable so I
mean when I say talking to users it
might just be like any shape of users
giving you like their attit udes right
so could be through a server way could
be through an email form could be
through actual conversation could be
through them making like a cool video
for you while they are using your
product there are all these methods
right but before you get there there are
also certain methods uh where you kind
of emulate your users and how they move
through your product and these can
already help you to somehow like tackle
some very big and glaring problems in
your interface right because the thing
is you do you talk to users let's let's
say an interview right you talk to them
you talk to five of them you have to you
know there there there is a lot of admin
related to like talking actually to
users and then you fix it and then you
have to talk to them again right because
why I guess why to to make sure that you
fixed it right I mean a new problem of
course this is this is the ideal flow
right it's very rare but then like if
you it's very expensive to to talk to a
user for the purpose of them telling you
hey this button is different color than
that button right yeah like pointing out
the obvious I already know this thing
yeah so there are certain methods like I
will name my favorite ones cognitive
walkthr and heris evaluation which are
very structured method that would help
you as um as a um developer product
developer or designer or whatever is
your role to somehow identify these like
low hanging fruits without having to
involve users right so this is It's like
a low cost yeah exactly so it's not
necessarily enough right so of course
like if you can talk to users you should
but if it's better than nothing right
it's always better to to apply more
methods uh okay so can you tell me about
the first one you you you put in some
big words that I've never heard before
so so the first one cognitive walkth
through walk through so it has a very
fancy name it's not a very fancy method
it's it's um in fact um sometimes my
colleagues like to tease me because I
really like this me method and it's a
it's a very vintage one right because
uxr is such a fast moving field uh and
we are always getting more and more data
about users if you end up using a method
from the 90s it's already like but I
think it's a very cool one right so the
whole idea of this method is that you
somehow first you start by describing to
yourself exactly who your users are and
what do they know and what do they not
know right so for if you are if you have
a online store right you might start by
thinking okay so they are they are in
their 20s you know they speak English
and so on right you make a lot of
assumptions about your users they should
be realistic and then um you make a list
of like tasks that users are
accomplishing with your product right so
if it's a if it's an online store they
might be buying something they might be
returning something they might be
comparing prices and so on right and for
each of these tasks you you follow a
very structured like way how users move
through the screens from the beginning
to the end how they currently move
through or how they should so uh um H
the ideal flow right so like how the way
that person who designed the system
imagine they would move right and then
at every point you ask yourself okay so
this is like this is how I think they
should go will they do this or not right
and then you kind of try to justify why
they would go the right way or why they
wouldn't and you just repeat this a lot
it takes maybe one two days to evaluate
like a decent sized website but at the
end you somehow end up with a bunch of
like assumptions right like they would
do this because they are like this or
they wouldn't do this because product is
like that and then all you have to do is
take this list of assumptions and
address each one of them right and say
okay this one was reasonable I leave it
this one ahuh okay if I fix this bit
then they will not have this problem
anymore right so you have kind of
generated a list of problems in your uh
product
without I mean it's not without bias of
course because you're making it's
difficult if you designed it this way
then then you go through this walk like
this is how I designed it h it's working
yeah but that's that's not a very good
right like because I said so is not a
good argument or for like why why a
certain experience should be like that
and if you're really honest to yourself
and your product right you will see okay
hey actually like this font is quite
hard to
read you have to be like into like
discovering the problems when I'm doing
this exercise I'm going to be critical
about this thing even though it's my
that I made of course and I mean this is
this is the thing right so if you really
want to like if you genuinely want your
product to be better then you will also
be like honest in your whichever method
you're applying but if you are trying to
and this happens a lot right if you're
just trying to satisfy some check mark
right if you want to say oh we did user
uh research for this product but you
don't really care to improve user
experience right then of course well
then you're set up for failure from the
beginning yes exactly so so like uh all
the advice I'm giving today is really
only meant if you genuinely want your
users to have better time with your
product yes okay so the second one so
cognitive walkthrough uh I'm think I'm
using my brain that's the cognitive part
is like I'm imagining I'm putting on
different hats and I'm imagining how
this type of user it sounds like user
Journeys almost but like in a practical
way yes it is right it is really like
you are analyzing user Journeys without
like having to adopt a super fancy
framework right um and then the second
fror
theistic evaluation evaluation okay yeah
all these fancy words right so this one
is actually even simpler you mentioned
before remember you said oh there are
certain standards that probably I can
follow to make my website I don't have
to necessarily invent everything like
from scratch and that's that's actually
what it is right you take a list of
Standards you take all screens and this
list of Standards can be anything that's
relevant to your product right so if
you're analyzing a website let's say we
have have a like a a knitting and
crochet yarn website that's selling
supplies and stuff like that is there a
standard for like how knitting websites
should be laid out so there isn't a
standard how knitting websites should be
laid out but there is a standard how
retail websit should be laid out and and
even more generally there is somehow
standard how website should be laid out
uh right so um but then if your product
is something else let's say you're
building which by the way you can
totally analyze usability of buildings
right um then there will be a different
set of Standards right so your first
goal is to somehow identify which
principles you should apply and these
are actually like really really high
level ones right so they are they're
saying stuff like contrast should be
good right and what does it mean that
contrast is good you will still judge
with your human eyes It also says well
you should like anticipate that people
will make an error and prevent it right
or if they make an error you should
allow them to recover from this error
easily so these are it's very simple
like close the entire app or something
like that exactly and then all you do is
like you take this list of principles
you take every single screen of your
product and then you just check that all
these principles are satisfied for every
screen and that's all right so it's very
very simple where do you find this list
of standard like this magical so I I
don't know if I'm allowed to plug
something in here that I'm in no way
affiliated with but there are many uh so
there are many like ux communities
around the world but actually for me
like the most useful website and the
place where I learn the most about these
things is um his website uh from neelsen
Norman group so neelson and Norman are
basically two fathers of this field of
uxr right or ux in general so uh if you
just look up Neilson Norman group they
they have hundreds if not thousands of
pages of different resources where you
can learn about different methods you
can learn how to apply them when do they
apply right because I did say before
well the more methods you do the better
it's not strictly true right because at
some point you get overwhelmed with the
amount of data or like suggestions that
are out there I mean it sounds like it's
sort of a a benchmark for the the
industry that you're in you're kind of
looking for what is like sort of high
level agreed upon but even there you
mentioned that there might be several
sources or opinions on like how to do
this thing it's not like there only one
answer like where the menu can be the
menu button absolutely and again there
is no one way to check whether the menu
is in menu button is in the right place
right so it can depend on like what are
your uxr skills that you have or don't
have right what will resonate well with
your stakeholders right so like I can
run thousands of surveys but if my
director only wants to watch videos of
users to make their mind right make up
their mind then then my surveys are not
so much um useful right and this is what
I meant about this difference between
Academia and um and Industry right
because ultimately what you're doing as
a uxr also has to be very practical
right so but uh putting all this aside
right so like what this website also
offers is you know it will give you good
advice okay so you know if you only have
a like a low Fidelity prototype right
you can't really measure time it takes
users to do something right so if you
have a paper prototype right so if you
don't yet have a page or website then
you can't really uh like measure things
that have to do with also how page
functions right so you might have
latency you might like have to um like
include for scrolling and so on which
you don't really have on a paper
prototype but like things you can then
like check that the structure of menu
makes sense right you can do some sort
of information architecture you can um
you can make sure that all the titles of
the sub pages are understandable that
all the sub menus are where they should
be text doesn't take too long to read
you know with your human eyes and so on
right so depending like in what level of
development you are with your product
you might use different methods right or
imagine you only have 100 users you
cannot run a survey with 100 users right
because what do you mean right you can't
oh that's a good point well right but
but what I mean let's say you email all
your 100 users and let's say they really
love you so you get an awesome response
rate of 20% right so that means you got
20 users to tell you oh they are like
satisfied with your product between
three and five right I mean you don't
ask them to give you a number you ask it
with a better question but just for the
caricature okay so now you have you have
you know you have certain number but
like your confidence interval is just so
big that you would never really do
statistics or try to model this data
when it's such a small data set right so
it might okay so it's not a big enough
data set for it to be like meaningful or
like reliable I guess so and also it
might make more sense than to just email
your 100 users and be like hey can I
chat with you for 15 minutes right and
if 20 of them tell you yes you will talk
to them for what H somebody do the match
right so like you will talk to them for
five hours and you will get like much
deeper because even let's let's say they
let's say all your 20 users told you
they they love your product right you
scored the highest uh grades or the
lowest grade you still don't know why
right yes so that's why you need the the
qualitative ex research this is the the
talking to them and learn more about
like why was that difficult exactly
exactly and uh and I mean in general I
think you always like it's very good to
always triangulate or like use different
methods to get at the same question
right because every method has its own
kind of uncertainty right because like
if you talk to five users and in general
like five users is like a good amount we
can talk about this like why is this
good amount because it sounds very low
right but then like the problem there is
okay like you have to put a lot of
thought into who your five users will be
like and how representative they are and
so on and you can never like from these
five users you know like what are the
pain points but you don't know like how
common they are right because you didn't
check with all your users on the other
side you know if you run a survey you
can check the frequency of paint points
but you won't know like the juicy
details right they cannot show you on
their screen hey look here I get stuck
right or hey look this is now off my
screen because my I'm doing this on a
small screen and you designed it for a
big one right so it's really like every
method will uncover like a different
type of information for you to make your
decisions right is there a recommended
approach where you sort of do the the
qualitative five user thing to find out
what the problems are and then do the
bulk survey to like validate this thing
is this like a common approach so this
is a super common approach yeah uh so
this is something that I do a lot with
my colleagues right so they will uh they
will run qualitative research and they
will identify certain themes and so on
and then I will go quantitatively right
because when they give me a list of
these problems let's say then I can turn
them into survey questions right and
then I can really assess what's going on
there sometimes it can also go the other
way around right I could identify in my
survey that uh people have a certain
issue right let's say they feel that the
information is outdated on the website
right but it could still mean many
things so then I can give this to my
qualitative uh colleagues and I can tell
them hey users are reporting this can
you go and check like what exactly do
they mean right ah okay so you kind of
find the theme the high level theme that
like uh it was reported that uh things
are out of date or difficult to use can
you find out why yeah can you find out
like or how widespread this issue is
this kind of thing so so yeah I guess
the widespread issue is more more like
the Quant area and Y is more like a qu I
mean it doesn't mean you cannot also get
into y with with qual with quantitative
it just needs more like it takes much
longer right and it's much uh like you
get much more noise in your data because
um ah so you bring us to a good point
with the data how do you know that you
have enough data and that it's good to
use clean enough that you
have and how can you tell this if you
are not uh like a dat Nerge is this
something that the average website owner
could do yeah yeah it can right so I
mean I guess like um how to say you have
exactly enough data I mean if you're
doing something Fancy with your data um
you will usually know what you're doing
right if you're trying to Model A
Certain phenomenon or develop a certain
metric you will then also be able to
calculate um exactly how much data you
need right and like you can calculate
how certain you are in your data but
that's not something you will DIY right
that's really something that that has
like its own kind of like other bucket
but if you just have some data right and
you want to know okay what what's going
on with this data like is this is this
good I would
say any data any amount of data is
better than any smaller amount of data
right oh well you always want more let's
give a practical example so let's say
that I'm running a survey uh on our
developer documentation site I'm running
it for 24 hours yeah and I've had maybe
100
responses is it enough how many users do
you have to begin with um 10,000 okay so
that means your 100 users are about one
are they 1% oh my God I don't want to
embarrass myself number this is even
like this is a fake example I should
give you uh easier numbers to do some
kind of computation no no it is 1% right
so right now what you have done is you
have taken the data from your from 1% of
your user right um if if this these 100
responses would be like equally
distributed right so you are sure that
you got all user slices in them it's
probably enough um and depending what
question you're trying to answer right
if you're trying to understand okay why
are you on my documentation page you can
do this with 100 right but if you're
trying to like track certain metrics
over time right so if you're having them
give you their I don't know like um um
their satisfaction and if you want to
turn this into a dashboard and track it
over time it's probably not enough right
because your confidence interval will be
very big it depends on like how much
data you have uh and then if you see a
different number in a month measured
from 100 responses you still cannot
really judge if if the things have
changed because the confidence intervals
will like overlap right so there is like
too much kind of possibility for an
error so with 100 participants you can
really like learn things about like okay
so like are you having certain issues
right like um what's maybe like even
something a little bit about
demographics but the problem is as long
as they're not
representative uh it's more just going
to be very informative but not enough to
do some sort of like metric development
or something so this is where you come
to the statistical significance number
there's like some magic number that you
need to hit well there is there is
actually a magic number and I'm now
worried I will give you very bad advice
right but like normally when you're
doing like this sample size calculations
why why are you
worried because uh because I don't want
to give bad advice to uh to somebody and
then like have their business go up in
flam because I said the number on a
podcast however uh you know how we said
well there is five participants are
enough for qualitative research there is
actually a good reason for that right of
course five will not uncover all issues
but the added value uh of insights from
the sixth one is much lower than adding
your second or third right so it's kind
of like a curve so from one participant
you learn a lot from if you add a second
one you learn almost double but as you
keep adding participants like and doing
interviews you're just hearing same and
same stories okay so you reach sort of
like a plateau where you no enough and
you you don't need to keep doing this to
keep hearing the same sentiment again
and again yeah yeah exactly what I
wanted to say earlier is actually like
before you start doing any fancy like
sample size calculations or whatever I
would say like you can use your human
eyes on your data right so and this is
something I love recommending to people
just like use your human eyes and look
at the stuff and you will already learn
so much right so like if you just plot
your data right so let's say you ran a
satisfaction survey on your little
website for 24 hours and you got certain
scores right and you can calculate an
average and let's say average is
3.5 but this average doesn't still tell
you okay do I have like a lot of haters
and a lot of like people who are
completely obsessed with my product or
is everybody Mech about it right the
average doesn't tell you that so if you
plot your data you will start to
understand you will see well what's the
shape of my data is everybody agreeing
with with each other or do I have like
multiple groups that might have multiple
attitudes right interesting uh yeah on
or then like if you you know let's say
you record how long people take on a
certain like Sub sub page of your
website right so if you just try to
trace these timings right so if you open
this website and then you sit there and
you wait as much as users wait there and
then you proceed to the next action you
start understanding like oh wait why is
this user now sitting on this page for
five minutes when they only need to
enter one number in the field like
what's going on there and then you start
thinking and you realize ah I'm asking
them to put in their credit card number
and they have to go and get their wallet
right so I cannot you know I cannot
assume that they will proceed like in 5
seconds when they are actually getting
their wallet right so it really helps
you just the kind of of like look at it
think about it and and try to maybe like
Reen what they have done if you have
some sort of like information right or
if you see that they're bouncing between
the two
pages um then you should also go and
bounce between these two pages as many
times as they do because then maybe
you'll realize ah okay wait actually
these two terms are too similar and they
don't know which one is the correct one
right so they or they're like checking
your shipping uh list of countries that
shi to you and whether or not I want to
make this purchase because I found out
it cost the same amount to ship me this
item as it is I don't know something
like this yeah pretty much and and
another thing I wanted to call out right
so like as long as your data matches
your research question you don't need to
have like a ton of data right like if
you think about it so you mean enough
data to then fix something for users
like if you have five people telling you
it's a problem it's enough to then maybe
make fix definitely so if if if these
are your real users and five of them out
of five right in the interviews are
telling you this is an issue this is
something right but just because
something is an issue it doesn't mean it
will end up being prioritized right
because there is other factors it might
be just too hard for you to fix or
something and this is I guess somehow
like what uxr are trying to do when
conducting our research right we try to
make sure that whether are five or 100
or 384 data points wherever they are
coming for this should somehow like
represent the slices of your users right
and it should be like carefully
considered going to inv but like if you
heard five times something is an issue M
and you had no clue that this was an
issue for even one person before I mean
you learned something right yes I mean I
learned a lot on this episode and this
has been super useful for me and I'm
like feeling re invigorated to think
about my survey for my site because it's
something that I've been wanting to do
and I think it would be now a good time
of the year to start thinking about
asking people what they're having
troubles with before planning for for
next year but as we close out is there
like one takeaway that you wish that uh
people would come away from this episode
uh having either learned something or
like a hot take about uh uxr that you
want to clear up huh so I don't know if
this is a hot take but uh I wanted to
say like whatever type of research you
want to do somebody has done it before
right and there is probably a standard
for it or a framework for it right and
it's always better to apply something
that's been like used and reused and
validated then trying to like come up
with your own questions right because if
we are not super trained like the be
Arts we might not even know like how to
avoid bias in questions or like um ju
even understanding just because you know
your users are satisfied like what does
it mean like why do I care right so just
looking it up and understanding aha okay
satisfaction is like highly correlated
with like retention rate then you know
why you're doing that right so just like
go out look it up right look up uh is
there a resource that we can put in the
description again I'm mentioning this
Neilson Norman website and if people
wanted to find you on the internet where
could they find you so uh again we will
put a link I guess to my LinkedIn
because if you L you try to if you try
to spell my last name from me
pronouncing it good luck with that
sounds good so we'll put the link uh in
the description thank you so much for
joining me today uh and that's it for
this episode next up on search off the
Record we're going to continue talking
about ux uh this time about the
relationship between ux and SEO so stay
tuned for that one and bye
[Music]
bye we've been having fun with these
podcast episodes and I hope you The
Listener have found them both
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free to drop us a note on LinkedIn or
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if you have any thoughts and of course
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thank you and goodbye
[Music]