How do I know if my SEO is doing a good job? | Search Off the Record

[MUSIC PLAYING]
LIZZI SASSMAN: Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode
of "Search Off the Record," a podcast coming to you from
the Google search team discussing all things search
and maybe having some fun along the way.
My name's Lizzi, and today I'm joined by John
from the search relations team, of which I'm also part of.
Hi, John.
Say hi.
JOHN MUELLER: Hi.
LIZZI SASSMAN: Oh, good--
following instructions today.
JOHN MUELLER: Yes.
[LAUGHTER]
LIZZI SASSMAN: And also with us today is Erica.
Erica, you're here today because of a LinkedIn post
that John posted that was sort of controversial, in my opinion.
John, can you tell us a little bit about why
you posted this thing?
What was the context of this spicy SEO post?
JOHN MUELLER: I don't think it was that spicy.
So in the SEO office hours, someone
submitted a question basically asking,
how can I tell if my SEO is doing
what they claim to be doing?
And I gave a short answer in the office hours.
We just-- usually just have, I don't
know, like a couple of seconds to answer a question,
essentially.
And I thought it was really good question, actually.
So I wanted to ask on LinkedIn to see
what other people have to say.
And we got a bunch of responses because I
think, partially, people felt almost like personally
addressed.
It's like, how can I tell if you're doing a good job?
And Erica put together a bunch of really good points.
So I thought it would be a good idea
to just have her join the podcast here,
and we can go through this a little bit more elaborate way.
LIZZI SASSMAN: So, Erica, this is the first time we're meeting,
and actually, we connected on LinkedIn.
And now we're on a podcast together.
Can you tell us about what you said on LinkedIn that sort of--
ERIKA VARANGOULI: I can try.
LIZZI SASSMAN: Do you remember?
It's been 800 years since the post.
ERIKA VARANGOULI: I can try, though.
Hi, thanks for having me.
Pleasure to be here.
So yeah, John asked this, which I didn't feel was controversial.
But I sort of felt like I could see myself
in it because I've been both agency and client side.
And these are constant topics that come up.
So for me, the different bullet points essentially
show that there are so many nuances
that it's logical for people to be asking those questions.
It's also logical not to have definitive answers.
Like, it's-- unfortunately or fortunately,
it's not like the apple falls from the tree every time.
So it was kind of like a few questions that people could ask.
I did have my friend Paolo in mind
who has like a small pizzeria in Italy somewhere.
And he's thinking like, how can I
get more people to learn that I'm here
and I'm making awesome pizza?
So it was like more about the nuances on what to ask
or what to look into to understand what's going on.
JOHN MUELLER: Maybe we can take a short step back first,
and you can give us some background about yourself
so that listeners know a little bit more
about you, what you've been doing, that kind of stuff.
ERIKA VARANGOULI: So yeah, I'm Erika Varangouli.
I'm the head of branded content at Riverside.
I've been there for the last three, four months.
And prior to that I've been working in SEO--
wow-- Almost like closer to 15 years now.
So I worked at Semrush for four years heading the SEO and brand.
And before that, like for seven, eight years or more,
the majority of my time was agency side.
So that's why I said like I've been
on the-- on both sides of this.
So worked agency side with small businesses, large enterprises,
and these, these questions and these themes
kept coming up even 15 years ago.
So I think it was a good post.
It was really good to see people's answers as well to it
and how they approach it.
JOHN MUELLER: Cool.
LIZZI SASSMAN: The post seemed to focus--
or at least the person who was originally asking the question
seemed to be asking about SEO agencies specifically.
It sounded like this person hired a--
they came into a team maybe, and they already
had a pre-existing relationship with an SEO agency.
And they wanted to know, like, how
do we see if it's going well, like checking in?
But would the advice that you have
apply across the board to any situation, like someone
who hasn't hired one yet or if you're doing SEO as like a DIY
small business owner.
How do you see that?
ERIKA VARANGOULI: Yeah, to be honest,
I didn't have that context or didn't look into it that much.
It's like I saw John's post, and it
does apply whether you're starting now
or you have like an agency or a freelancer
doing your SEO or multiple ones.
And it's sort of like that relation
is crucial to your business, right?
So whether-- even if you have one
or you're thinking of stopping and moving on to a new one,
it's kind of like the questions and the things
to be looking into regardless of the stage
you're at, essentially.
LIZZI SASSMAN: So if you were to start from scratch,
you don't have--
you've never worked with an SEO, what
would be sort of the first step to deciding
if you want to hire one, if this makes sense for your business?
ERIKA VARANGOULI: So that is a good question for me
because until you said it, Lizzi, I was like,
I've never thought whether anyone would need an SEO.
I was like, I'm an SEO, so everyone needs an SEO.
LIZZI SASSMAN: Of course you need me.
I'm critical.
[LAUGHTER]
ERIKA VARANGOULI: But like, statistically speaking,
if you're marketing your business online,
you're probably wanting to be found where people search.
And people search-- tend to search a lot on Google, right?
So that's the first connection with SEO is like, OK,
do I have my website on?
I want to market my business online.
Maybe I've already set up a social account,
or I have my website.
And I've set up search console.
So it's kind of like an initial look
into do I get people seeing my website?
Am I getting found?
Do I see anything from my pages getting
indexed to actually getting traffic
and then leads conversions from it?
And I think once you do that, like it's very hard to tell
people, OK, just go to a third party tool and see how much
your competitors are getting, because probably nine out of 10
times they cannot do that.
But it starts with your own business plan and like how--
why did you create a website in the first place?
What was your idea of how much revenue, how many people you
could get through the door by doing that?
And then if you're not getting there or it's a slow progress
or you're having technical issues, like, you're talking
with developers, and you have no clue what they're doing
or whether they're doing it right,
I would say it's pretty much a good time, if not a bit late,
to involve an SEO to help you with this.
So I would say 99% of the time you do need an SEO,
but that's a biased approach.
You kind of need to assess your business
and whether online could be a big opportunity.
Can I bring my friend Paolo back into it?
Like, Paolo has a pizzeria.
He has a reputation where he has--
people just know where he is, and they go and buy pizza.
But it's also a place that gets a lot of tourists, right?
So Paolo, for example, knows that if people find him
on Google or Google Maps, you can get more traffic, right?
He was asking me like, how do I get seen on Google Maps?
How do people know I'm here and find me?
So the moment you start wondering,
could I be getting more people, it is a good time
to involve or consider SEO as an option.
LIZZI SASSMAN: How would he go about assessing whether or not
there is room for improvement?
ERIKA VARANGOULI: I think that's tough.
Like, I think if you don't have the knowledge,
you cannot really do that.
LIZZI SASSMAN: What would be a good place
to start getting some knowledge for someone who's a beginner?
ERIKA VARANGOULI: Like, for example with local
it might be a bit easier because anyone
can go on Google or Google Maps and sort of Google a competitor
or their own brand and sort of see what comes up.
Or if I'm selling anything else, and I Google it, and see
who comes up, right there and then, I
get an idea of competitors without using any tools
or any expert knowledge, right?
We can say, OK, there are tons of Chrome extensions.
There are tons of these things where
you can start getting data, but without a context,
I feel sometimes this is more dangerous for people
and how they interpret them.
But in terms of understanding the opportunity,
you can see like what kind of results come back
and how people are interested.
Also, nowadays, most people, either for their business
or their own, they're on social media.
So many times, like small business owners or solopreneurs,
depending on what they do, they might even
be on a specialized platform like selling
what they make, like Crush It.
What was it the other day?
Crush It mobile phone cases on Etsy.
So it's kind of like they can--
they do have some understanding of what the competition is
online and the interest.
Like, what is the engagement on social posts?
How much do they sell or the other brand sell on platforms
like that?
So that's a good start, and they can see how far
they are from it, right?
You can instantly assess how far you
are from that ideal or better-performing image
that you see.
JOHN MUELLER: So would you say that there
is at least a minimum amount of knowledge
that someone should have and kind of take the time
to learn the basics first?
Or could they say it's like, oh, I just want more traffic,
I will hire an SEO.
I have no idea what is involved.
[LAUGHTER]
ERIKA VARANGOULI: I've worked with both kind of approaches,
right?
Someone saying, I just know I want more from online,
and I know I can do better.
I just made this website expecting to get much more.
And with some others saying, you know,
I know the potential is that big.
Come in and sort of help me get there.
I would argue this is not even SEO studying, right?
It's more like a business product market fit.
Like you create something based on what?
Maybe that's what you like to do,
but then usually you don't care if it sells.
It's like, that's my hobby.
I like to do this.
I don't care if anyone listens to my podcast.
[LAUGHTER]
But, I mean, like this is an activity that is-- quite often,
I meet people who say, I love to do it,
I have fun with my friends, and then
if we end up increasing our listenership, that's great.
But usually it's a business.
You're selling something, I assume,
and I expect you will have done some kind of market research.
Anyway, so you have some idea.
And then with SEO, there are--
I always recommend reading stuff before you do anything
with anyone.
Like, it was part of--
I don't remember if it was part of my answer to your post, John.
But I always say SEO largely has to do
with how well you do on Google.
Google has done a good job of giving more transparency
on what is like a standard you have
to hit to do the right things or how to do them--
what is important, what is not that important.
So-- and it's written in a way that doesn't have me,
Erika, in mind, necessarily.
It has small business owners, people who don't know SEO.
So you can start there.
You should start there if you are serious about hiring someone
to help you perform better.
LIZZI SASSMAN: I think it's important to sort of understand
the jargon or the lingo that they're going to be using.
So anytime you're entering a new space,
like even if there is documentation that's
written for beginners, the person you're hiring
is probably going to be using these terms and things.
And it would be good to sort of be familiar with them.
But I do try to get around that in the beginner-friendly
documentation.
So we explain things in a way that
should be approachable for someone
who's not in the industry.
But we still have to mention it sometimes
because if you're in the industry,
like we're writing for you as well.
So we need to sort of introduce people to that concept.
But I think that that is part of the beginning to understanding
like, what are they doing?
Are they using words and concepts
that are actually nothing?
Or like, what are they talking about when they say that they
can improve something?
What does it mean, and is it actually aligned
with the business goal?
JOHN MUELLER: So let's say you decide to hire someone
because you think there's potential,
and they've been working with you for a bit.
What are some of the things that you
would expect an SEO to kind of start off
with when it comes to starting to work with a company?
ERIKA VARANGOULI: So I think at the beginning,
that flows through the whole relation, right?
Working with an SEO in-house or external--
we're talking external-- is a relation.
An SEO is part of your marketing function,
part of a business function, right?
So one of the first things in that relation,
that relation timeline, is how do you onboard them
and how they onboard you, right?
SEO is not math in the sense you don't just
always do the same things.
You have to have a good understanding of the business,
the industry, the competitors.
Then into the business, like what
are the limitations that business has in terms
of resources, in terms of time?
What are their plans for the future?
Where do they want to get?
Not in terms of like want a rank,
but in terms of like I want to be getting to that revenue.
I want to have that much--
that bigger team.
So onboarding is important.
If someone just wants to sign a contract with you and you think,
OK, yeah, that sounds good, and they don't even
ask you questions about your business,
your website, your team.
They don't get in touch.
Like, SEO has dependencies as well, right?
It could be dev.
It could be content.
It could be anything, like email.
A lot of different functions collaborate with SEO.
So the first sign, and I would look into it,
is how do they onboard you?
How do they build that plan?
And then do they build a plan to show to you,
or do they come to you with like what
feels like a blanket approach?
Like, they go to everyone with this, right?
We give you X many links every month for that amount of money.
We give you that many blog posts for that amount of money.
That kind of feels like the same approach
to everyone and everything, and it's probably not
going to be right for you.
So starting from that tailored communication, that flexibility,
that interest into really understanding your business
and your space, your industry, your competitors
is a first sign that it's really, really important.
Equally, that goes to the people who want to hire an SEO.
It's like if you're not going to be
transparent or willing to share information,
your limitations, your resources, it can cause issues.
Like, an agency or a freelancer may
have the best ideas, the best approaches, and the best way
to get there, but they will need you to be with them.
So you have to realize that from the start
in order to make things work.
LIZZI SASSMAN: Because they might put in the proposal, hey,
we need these technical things improved,
and therefore, you need dev resources.
And if you don't actually have that for another six months,
then how are you going to see results?
ERIKA VARANGOULI: Yeah, or work with them to figure out
like how important is it?
What else can be done, or how can we both
solve this problem together?
Is there a way without having in-house dev resources
or someone?
How can we make it happen?
Because it's so important that it happens.
LIZZI SASSMAN: I think we ran across that
working with an SEO agency.
They had put in our list of recommendations--
they started out with an audit and then had a list
of recommendations for what we could do for our site,
developers.google.com/search.
And one of the things was improve our core web vitals.
And for that--
[LAUGHTER]
Like, I had to open a ticket to the dev team that runs
our content management system.
And they were like, this is like a P72 priority,
like bottom of the pile.
And then I went back to the agency
to ask them can you give me--
I mean, it's a little bit awkward,
but can you give me any supporting evidence
that can help me with the case with the developers to say,
like, this is why it's important?
Like, maybe that will strengthen the request.
And they gave me a little bit, but again.
At the end of the day, for the development team,
they have their own priorities about what
they need to be working on for-- to maintain our content
management system.
And this is just one piece there.
So it's sort of like all of them working together.
That can be tricky.
ERIKA VARANGOULI: And that communication,
like you're touching on something that is--
has so many different layers, but it's kind of like, OK,
your SEO not just works with you but also
with the dev, the other people, they need to.
Then we're actually moving a bit into another point, which
is the prioritization, right?
Why are they prioritizing something?
And that's why I mentioned the business function, right?
They need to help you understand how important it
is for your business.
Now, one of the difficulties there
is like, OK, what is the business value
of improving core web vitals?
I would argue anyone that answers that with a dollar
figure is probably lying.
But giving you an idea of like, OK, SEO
doesn't work in isolation, and it's not just
the sum of the parts, right?
It's a compound effect.
So helping you understand, if you're limited,
if you're strapped for resources,
those things are crucial.
Those things that are not so crucial can happen later.
These are nice to have and then communicating that to the devs.
Developers also often don't know SEO.
They don't make decisions based on SEO, right?
So educating them, there's an educational piece
in that relation that is huge.
So that can help because the dev teams usually
have more work than resources, and they plan according
to what they-- what is critical-- critical fixes or new
features.
But then, if they help you as the owner or the owner
of the business or of the relation understand,
this is crucial because then it unblocks X and Y
or it compounds with the 10 other stuff
we're going to be doing, then you
can do a better job of explaining and getting
things going.
JOHN MUELLER: Do you think the SEOs should offer references
with regards to kind of like why they're prioritizing things?
Or is it enough for them to be like, well, I've
been doing this for 700 years?
You can just trust it.
[LAUGHTER]
ERIKA VARANGOULI: Well, I--
both can be true.
They're not mutually exclusive.
But like in the case of I've been doing it for 7,000 years,
I would ask for examples of so you did this 10,000 times.
How did you get it done faster or cheaper
or in that amount of time with that amount of resource?
And what was the outcome?
What was the result in the end, not just of this?
But did you see maybe some things may have a direct impact?
But I can tell you how I do it.
Like, I find references.
So first, it's like it helps especially--
I don't want to go specifically into dev teams
all the time because that's just an example.
But especially with dev teams, it
helps-- like documentation, how it impacts things,
how to do it properly, how it connects
to something else on the side.
It helps them kind of get a bigger picture
of why that decision versus another decision they would
have made on the code is better and can help other functions.
And then for me, it's also about communicating
those critical issues.
There are many times I've gone to dev teams and said,
oh, my God.
This is crucial.
We need to fix it now.
And then we sat down, and they told me their crucial fix.
And I was like, OK, yeah, maybe you're right.
I can wait a bit.
[LAUGHTER]
LIZZI SASSMAN: So let's say you've
been working with this SEO agency
now for maybe two quarters, and you
want to check in to see if things have been SEO-ing.
What are some practical things that you should look for?
Could you walk us through maybe a short checklist
of what should I be paying attention
to and then maybe red flags?
ERIKA VARANGOULI: OK, sure.
So two quarters is a long time.
Sometimes--
LIZZI SASSMAN: I know.
Maybe I haven't been--
ERIKA VARANGOULI: But other times--
LIZZI SASSMAN: Maybe I just joined the team.
I joined the team mid-year and somebody
else who hired this agency.
And now I'm like, hello?
ERIKA VARANGOULI: Yeah, maybe not though as well.
Sometimes I hear, we've been working
with an agency for six months.
We haven't seen anything.
They're not doing anything.
And that's not true--
simply not true.
So I think going back to the communication, that--
in the process of that relation being ongoing,
you should be seeing some kind of reporting, right?
Let alone the fact that I think a normal kind of relation
involves the agency or the freelancer reaching out to you.
You're reaching out to them if you see something wrong.
So it doesn't have to be so scripted
as like we meet at the beginning of each month
just to go over reporting.
But as a minimum, you should be able to have
in front of you pretty much a plan of what they were
going to do in the first or every month
and then a reporting at the end telling you what they did,
what they didn't manage to, and why
and also kind of like a tracking and monitoring of some metrics
they will be doing.
So it is a whole other discussion, and it's a huge one,
like which metrics actually matter to be tracking.
I don't know if we have enough time to go in,
but it's like, OK, if you have agreed
that we are going to monitor, I don't know,
organic traffic or rankings or those keywords
and you have both agreed on them and you agree they're important,
then you should be getting a report that tells you
the movement, at least the trend, in how
you're doing for those ones.
And then just to throw a spanner in the works,
it may not be moving in the direction you thought, right?
It doesn't mean they're not doing a great job.
But it is the kind of initial minimum transparency
you need in order to have the conversations with them.
Why is this not happening, or why are we moving
in the opposite direction?
I'm hoping it doesn't happen to anyone, but let's say it does.
So again, with SEO I've seen, it's
very easy to jump to conclusions or someone
to promise the earth, the moon, and the sun
and then thinking my agency does not deliver all of that.
They must be crap at it.
Let's do something else.
But actually look into what they're doing, why, and how.
And listen to what is the blocking?
What is the blocker there?
And that can give you some good direction around
are they doing a good job?
Will the results start coming if you continue in that way?
And challenge them.
Like, it allows you to challenge them as well
LIZZI SASSMAN: It sounds like red flag number
one is that there should be some communication.
It shouldn't be radio silence.
If you're not hearing from them at all for two quarters
and there's been no--
ERIKA VARANGOULI: Oh, no
LIZZI SASSMAN: --email, that'd be like, what's happening?
[LAUGHTER]
ERIKA VARANGOULI: No, two quarters.
LIZZI SASSMAN: That's crazy.
OK, one quarter, I don't know.
ERIKA VARANGOULI: One quarter?
LIZZI SASSMAN: Or one month.
ERIKA VARANGOULI: I think a week is too much.
LIZZI SASSMAN: A week?
ERIKA VARANGOULI: So I have to talk with my SEO and my clients
all the time.
But-- like not talk, like that is another kind of--
can be dangerous.
Maybe they're very good at relation handling,
and they're not actually doing work.
So there's always that.
But at the end of the day, you kind of have some data from them
and if you have the communication, the transparency.
Do they tell you when they failed at doing something,
when something is--
are they proactive?
I've, worked agency for years, and clients and the promises
done, made at the beginning, were
nowhere near what we were going to deliver.
How proactive are you in terms of communicating that, right?
Are you telling them, look, your resources
are much more limited than we thought.
You've not given us this.
We, on our side, have this problem.
So we're going to adjust and go there and then assess
whether you're happy with that or not, of course.
But how proactive is that on their end?
LIZZI SASSMAN: And taking a look at the full picture
is probably another aspect of maybe they gave you
a list of recommendations, and nobody has implemented them yet.
So, of course, there would be no effect.
ERIKA VARANGOULI: Yeah, and also like,
I have a thing for SEO agencies or freelancers
who just give people lists of stuff to do
and just drop it there.
This is everything.
So that is lacking context.
That is lacking prioritization, probably understanding
of the business, right?
So it's like you said, Lizzi, earlier about the terms
and using terms and terminology.
Usually an SEO who cares, who wants to achieve things with you
will explain what things are, how to do them.
They will handhold if they have to, and in many cases,
you have to.
And they will help you get there.
Just giving you an amazing looking document,
call it audit or plan, and then just let
you do stuff is not how I've seen SEO to work well.
JOHN MUELLER: So basically, when they do an audit
and if they use an SEO tool to generate
a big report, that's one part.
But the more important part is almost
that the SEO helps to prioritize that with you.
ERIKA VARANGOULI: Exactly.
JOHN MUELLER: Works through that and says
there are 500 things here, and here
are the five things you should be focusing on first because
of your unique situation.
ERIKA VARANGOULI: Yeah, exactly.
And then provide additional documentation.
Those actions, no matter what they are,
they might require technical specs and briefs.
They might require content briefs.
And how are they working with you to do this?
At the end of the day, that is what
helps you get from having something to actually doing
what you need to be doing.
So yeah, it's super important.
LIZZI SASSMAN: Are there any things
that you would consider to be green flags or signals
that things are going well?
We focused on sort of the things that they're not doing, but--
[LAUGHTER]
ERIKA VARANGOULI: Or that they are.
LIZZI SASSMAN: Yeah, that they're doing work,
and it's a positive thing.
ERIKA VARANGOULI: So yeah, it sounds counterintuitive,
but I do really like and I tend to trust
when an SEO comes and says, you don't need that in SEO
right now.
Your priorities should be elsewhere.
So good SEOs tend to look at other channels, other business
functions.
They know they have to be cross-functional.
So many times, depending on the stage your business is at
or the resources available, you have
to tell someone you're not going to see
that many results from this.
But instead, you could look into X and Y
and then look into SEO a bit later
or when you're at that point.
When someone in SEO tells you to look elsewhere,
it might be a green flag as much as it sounds wrong.
Also, when they don't give you the promises you want to hear.
So again, like if I want to be--
like how many times I've heard someone say,
I want to rank number one for all these terms.
Maybe they already have the terms and the keywords, right?
Someone has said like, you shouldn't be thinking
in these terms, and you should be looking at this and that way
and not promising you to get you to place number one or top five
or top 10, it's probably someone worth
talking a bit more to as well.
LIZZI SASSMAN: So if they're giving you like a realistic
point of view or what-- sort of helping you re-evaluate--
ERIKA VARANGOULI: Or not false promises.
Like at the end of the day--